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calvinAdministrator



Reged: Apr 30 2002
Posts: 2391
Loc: NW Ohio
New Glue to Me
      #7377 - Mon Nov 03 2003 02:36 PM Attachment (349 downloads)

At the JLC Live show in Columbus, Oh. in September. I came across a demo for a quick set glue.

I struggled a year and a half ago (the year of the kitchen) on 5 kitchen remodels. The tear out, the routing of mechanicals and lighting, the exotic floor coverings and cabinet setting all went well. Last to go up was the final trim-top of cab. crown. Some of the crown came with a leg to attach to the top edge of the rail. Some didn't and I had to add that leg, fastening it from the back. A little inconvenient and in some cases difficult to attach, but still not that big of a deal. What stymied me kitchen after kitchen was fastening the crown mitres to themselves. Only one trim was stained wood. This one I could pin and fill to hide the fastener. The others were either finish painted mdf or thermofoil. The mdf mushrooms, and being prefinished precluded sanding. Same thing with the thermofoil. I didn't want to face nail it.

I tried bisquits and it worked, tho constant change of set up (for the various mitre configurations) and the time necessary bothered me. On the last one I tried spring clamps (1 small hole each side) and an mdf glue. It was a quick and pretty clean installation.............till a year later and some of the mitres opened. I went back and reglued, touched up the mitre with the repair kit and hoped for the best. Where the joints had been easy to close the first time, it almost felt like the cab attachment was putting a strain on it.

Well, as luck would have it, some opened again. Rats! I scheduled one more repair (shortly after the JLC show) before reordering the crown and starting over. I had to try this new glue system. Wished I had it available to me to begin with. It allows pregluing of the trim (Quick) and then mounting of the whole shelonga at one time.

Here's how it works. I showed this stuff to a guy at the lumber yard recently and he mentioned it was something like he knew of from model plane building. A quick set glue, with set time speeded up with a spray activator. The product is from Fastcap. fastcap

The glue is 2 part. 2P-10 adhesive and 2P-10 activator. I used the Jel adhesive (there are two other "types" available according to surface characteristics of parts to be joined). 2P-10 is a cyno-acrylate adhesive (super glue). The adhesive has been further refined to expel impurities and acidic stabilizers have been added to resist the acidic nature of wood.

You apply a small amount of adhesive to one piece and spray the activator on the other piece. When joined, some pressure for maybe 10 seconds and the two pieces are like one. Alignment when putting them together is important as there is (should be) no movement once joined. The joint is fully cured in 30 seconds and ready for mounting. The attachment shows the first step, applying the adhesive. Shown here joining some prepainted casing.



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Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City

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calvinAdministrator



Reged: Apr 30 2002
Posts: 2391
Loc: NW Ohio
Re: New Glue to Me [Re: calvin]
      #7378 - Mon Nov 03 2003 02:40 PM Attachment (347 downloads)

When you apply that adhesive, don't use so much that squeeze out occurs. You could glue it to yourself (no joke) or to the worksurface. I used some wax paper as a backer.

In this attachment is the 2nd step, spraying the activator to the other piece.

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Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City

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calvinAdministrator



Reged: Apr 30 2002
Posts: 2391
Loc: NW Ohio
Re: New Glue to Me [Re: calvin]
      #7379 - Mon Nov 03 2003 02:47 PM Attachment (361 downloads)

I used an mdo flat plywood pc. to make the worksurface with a pc of waxed paper under the pcs to be glued. I put both pcs on the board, registered the tip of the mitre and swung both pcs together..........pressing down so the face of the joint would be properly aligned. Hold it 10 seconds and she stuck. You don't want to take a second try, the glue is compromised and some quick setting occurs, so the joint won't be pretty any more if you do. (Work alone, take pics alone, only have two hands.....) Here's the finished product.

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Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City

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calvinAdministrator



Reged: Apr 30 2002
Posts: 2391
Loc: NW Ohio
Re: New Glue to Me [Re: calvin]
      #7380 - Mon Nov 03 2003 02:54 PM Attachment (340 downloads)

I'm sure you have cussed drywall, jamb alignment etc when casing openings. On paint grade the face of the mitre is more important than the caulkable joint between the casing and the jamb or wall surface. Pre-joining the mitre, then fastening the whole thing to the window or door is in my opinion a great way to do it. I've wanted to do it before, but wood glue and a couple pins at the tip of the mitre took time to set and care in mounting so as not to break the joint. This stuff eliminates those concerns. My only hope and time will tell, if the substance lasts as wood glue has been proven, to hold the mitres together.

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Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City

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calvinAdministrator



Reged: Apr 30 2002
Posts: 2391
Loc: NW Ohio
Re: New Glue to Me [Re: calvin]
      #7381 - Mon Nov 03 2003 03:15 PM Attachment (356 downloads)

I did a couple tests with mdf, mitred 2x4, and a pvc exterior trim. No one has been able to separate the 2x4 mitre (finished pc 4"x4"). No one had been able to separate the pvc, till recently and as the next attmt shows, the failure was the pvc. Some of it stayed on the one pc making a hole in the other. Similar situation with the mdf. The mdf failed.

The pvc had one dab of glue in the center of the crossed pcs. The 2x4 mitre and mdf had one line of adhesive down the center of the mitre.

The attmt shows the pvc glued.

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Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City

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calvinAdministrator



Reged: Apr 30 2002
Posts: 2391
Loc: NW Ohio
Re: New Glue to Me [Re: calvin]
      #7382 - Mon Nov 03 2003 03:18 PM Attachment (363 downloads)

Glue sticks, pvc fails. And believe me, people put some pretty good torgue trying to break the bond.

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Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City

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calvinAdministrator



Reged: Apr 30 2002
Posts: 2391
Loc: NW Ohio
Re: New Glue to Me [Re: calvin]
      #7383 - Mon Nov 03 2003 03:24 PM

I bought this product as you will have to do. I just had to share an answer to a problem question I have had too often. However, for turning you on to it I hope to convince the owner of Fastcap to offer up the product for auction here on the site as a thank you for the introduction. Wish me luck.

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Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City

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bobl



Reged: Apr 30 2002
Posts: 176
Loc: Ma
Re: New Glue to Me [Re: calvin]
      #7384 - Mon Nov 03 2003 04:52 PM

any idea on the shelf life once opened?

don't use much glue, sounds good, but hate to have things go bad on the shelf once opeened.

need to check the site to see if can be ised on exterior.

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bobl
Volo, non valeo


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bobl



Reged: Apr 30 2002
Posts: 176
Loc: Ma
Re: New Glue to Me [Re: bobl]
      #7385 - Mon Nov 03 2003 06:08 PM

The new issue of JLC arrived.
pg 122 has a piece on this glue.
the fellow doing the review says he's had an 8oz bottle (thick) he's been using for 4 months and the glue is still good.

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bobl
Volo, non valeo


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calvinAdministrator



Reged: Apr 30 2002
Posts: 2391
Loc: NW Ohio
Re: New Glue to Me [Re: bobl]
      #7386 - Mon Nov 03 2003 07:37 PM

bobl,

on the bottom of the bottle and can there is a date. I'm assuming that is a use by, but perhaps fastcap can verify. Possibly a sell by. I had heard a year shelf life from the sales rep. However, I did hear also from the model builder that they kept theirs in the freezer to keep it good. Another question for fastcap. You'll also see that there are smaller sizes available.

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Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City

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Johnwalker



Reged: Apr 30 2002
Posts: 630
Loc: Australia
Re: New Glue to Me [Re: calvin]
      #7387 - Mon Nov 03 2003 08:06 PM

Sounds good Calvin,
Wonder if I'll see it down here? probably not the smaller companies seem to have a big enough market in the states without shipping to here. sure would be handy though.
Cheers John

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www.johnwalkerbuilders.com


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Johnwalker



Reged: Apr 30 2002
Posts: 630
Loc: Australia
Re: New Glue to Me [Re: Johnwalker]
      #7388 - Mon Nov 03 2003 08:10 PM

I should have looked at the Fastcap website before that last post
They do export to here I can get some through Lincoln Sentry which my cabinet maker users as a supplier, gunna give it a try. thanks Calvin

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www.johnwalkerbuilders.com


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calvinAdministrator



Reged: Apr 30 2002
Posts: 2391
Loc: NW Ohio
Re: New Glue to Me [Re: Johnwalker]
      #7389 - Mon Nov 03 2003 11:17 PM

You're welcome john. Let me know what you think when you find it. I think the marketing arm of Fastcap really has it together as far as distribution.

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Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City

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calvinAdministrator



Reged: Apr 30 2002
Posts: 2391
Loc: NW Ohio
Re: New Glue to Me [Re: bobl]
      #7391 - Thu Nov 06 2003 12:32 AM

bobl.

I read the review today in JLC. Amazing similarity to what I feel about the glue. Interesting the testing procedure us carpenters dream up.

Tonite I talked to a real sweetheart at FastCap and managed to enlist their support for in donating the glue kit for auction. If you want to wait, you can view it at Auction when I receive the package. Should be here next wk (11/14/03).



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Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City

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calvinAdministrator



Reged: Apr 30 2002
Posts: 2391
Loc: NW Ohio
Re: New Glue to Me [Re: bobl]
      #7410 - Thu Nov 06 2003 11:04 PM

Received this email today. Should answer the question of shelf life and if freeze/thaw stable.

Hello Cal;

Here are the answers to your 2P-10 questions.

The date on the bottom of the 2P-10 bottles is the sell by date. 2P-10 has a shelf life of two years (edit: 1 year from sell by date) , if it is stored in a cool dry place. Storing it in a refrigerator is best and can extend the life even longer. Freezing it does not extend it any longer than refrigerating it, but will not hurt it either.

Thanks,
Erin


Erin Kennedy
National Sales Assistant
FastCap

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Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City

Edited by calvin (Fri Nov 14 2003 02:23 AM)


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bobl



Reged: Apr 30 2002
Posts: 176
Loc: Ma
Re: New Glue to Me [Re: calvin]
      #7429 - Sun Nov 09 2003 12:10 AM

curious

I sent them an email and received this answer

Dear Bob,
The printed shelf life is 1 year from date of production.....if kept in a cool
place. The glue will set up in heat, so the refrigerator is the best place to
keep it if you live in a warm climate.
Thanks
Leanne

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bobl
Volo, non valeo


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calvinAdministrator



Reged: Apr 30 2002
Posts: 2391
Loc: NW Ohio
Re: New Glue to Me [Re: bobl]
      #7432 - Sun Nov 09 2003 01:25 PM

I'll pass that on to erin and hope for further explanation. I'm supposing you'd be safe using the one year from sell by date . Other than that, used it again this week and even more glad for making the purchase. Homeowner saw me installing casings, wondered why I wasn't doing it a pc at a time (glued up the mitres and placed the completed casings to the door). Glued up the small mitre cutoffs and let him try to break the joint. He even tried using the horses as a fulcrum. Now he understands.

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Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City

Edited by calvin (Fri Nov 14 2003 02:26 AM)


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bobl



Reged: Apr 30 2002
Posts: 176
Loc: Ma
Re: New Glue to Me [Re: calvin]
      #7434 - Mon Nov 10 2003 12:56 PM

i wouldn't let that (time difference) stop me from buying the stuff.

sounds like keeping it cool is best for life of it.

just curious that they don't give out the same info, but even a year life after open is good, if u think about gorrila glue which is good for what, month or two after opening.
may be a case of what they will say in wriiting and what it will most likely do in the field

still would buy it

--------------------
bobl
Volo, non valeo


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JohnD



Reged: Oct 21 2002
Posts: 46
Loc: Chicago Suburbs
How long will they last? [Re: bobl]
      #7435 - Mon Nov 10 2003 06:42 PM

These are two completely different types of glue. (You are talking to someone who must specify these materials.)

Gorrila Glue is a Urethane based glue. They are every bit as strong as you have heard and seen. And, they have good lifetimes after you glue things up. They cure by reaction with moisture, and they foam a little. I am sure that you have read that really dry materials do not work well.

Well, this glue also fails in the same manner. Moisture can seep through the plastic bottle, molecule by molecule, and react with the glue. Sooner or later you have a glue that no longer is. Instead it is a solid. But before that time it no longer glues well even though it comes out of the bottle.

The new glue that you are discussing can be one of two different materials. The original cyanoacrylates ("Crazy Glue") cures in the presence of oxygen, AND in the presence of certain activation sites on the substrate. Most metals have them, so they are very good at glueing metals. In order to bond ceramics, wood, and the like you have to add these activation materials. THAT is the material you spray onto the substrate before using the glue. These CA materials only work in rather thin layers, and wood and the like often have too big a gap to properly bond. Also, the CA tends to be brittle.

As to lifetime on the CA, there is an oxygen inhibitor blended into the material. As oxygen seeps (molecule by molecule) into the mix, it slowly reacts with the inhibitor until it is all gone. Then you have your solid bottle. With this material, as long as you can get it out of the bottle is is probably good. You might have a VERY short cure time.

Now, there is a second material called a "modified acrylic" which is a cousin to the CA. It can bond really strongly to almost anything, but again it has to have an activator. The original materials had a 15 to 30 second lifetime at the longest, which was a nuisance unless you had really good fixtures. But it was relatively flexible and had excellent outdoor survivability. They have played with the chemistry in the past 25 years, and you now have materials that have a useable life of up to 5 minutes.

There is a noticeable difference between the two materials, mostly in odor. The modified acrylics have a noticeable odor (the original materials STUNK with a sickly sweet smell). CA materials are basically odor free.

This material has a more or less indefinite lifetime. The cure is from a second chemical and is not affected by moisture or oxygen or low temperatures or high temperatures or ....


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calvinAdministrator



Reged: Apr 30 2002
Posts: 2391
Loc: NW Ohio
Re: How long will they last? [Re: JohnD]
      #7436 - Tue Nov 11 2003 03:36 AM

Jeez john, didn't know of your chemical background. You know this stuff don't you? So, if its a CA glue, and I'm glueing mitres, can I expect those mitres to stay glued ad infinitum?..............or at least as good as yellow glue?.........sure do like the quick set and I'm telling you a joint you can't break...........at least no too darn easily. I've got a cpl inch mitre scrap glued up in my nail bag (not to it) that I've been putting the strong arm on as time permits, and to date no break.

Tell me more.

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Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City

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