frammer53
Reged: Apr 12 2008
Posts: 14
Loc: utica, NY
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Mike, if I remember correctly, you have told me to dial it down, I think. My mind is messed up occasionally. I am on meds. I try to listen to people that have been around awhile. 
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PIFFIN
Reged: Apr 29 2002
Posts: 94
Loc: Island in Maine
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"For some reason, BT has a reputation of attracting heated discussion."
I think there are two reasons for that.
One is that this community has always attracted the finest and best - top notch people from all walks of life - Top guns all.
people who have that striving for excellence and walking on the edge are not the kind of people who sit mildly while ...whatever..they jump in and set to do something.
IMO, that is the kind of people you want - otherwise, call it Sir Hacks-A-Lot homebuilding instead of FHB
So we chaffe each other's edges a bit.
The other reason is that There is too much tolerance of troll behaviour. That are/ have been those who see BT as their own personal ego trip - soap box. They live to start arguments ands that is apparent in the tone of their first post 99% of the time. They rarely poke their heads up in the building threads. I learned to hit the ignore thread button on most of their stuff long time ago.
I see having some decent argues with other builders and what not, but when the only apparent purpose for a member to come to BT is to constantly start arguements, they take away from the purpose and the community.
I don't know how to weed them out other than having a mod spend a fair amt of time knowing the ground and the buffalo's stamping on it.
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Excellence is its own reward!
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PIFFIN
Reged: Apr 29 2002
Posts: 94
Loc: Island in Maine
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Thanks for the response specifically, and for the corrections in my assumptions.
but while you refer to mine as a diatribe, it was more of a goad - trying to instigate response and communications.
Looks like the seed sprouted and the cotyleon leaves are breaking ground. I hope the frost doesn't make them wilt.
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Excellence is its own reward!
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PIFFIN
Reged: Apr 29 2002
Posts: 94
Loc: Island in Maine
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"This is news to me. I haven't pulled a thread in at least 2 weeks. I'll check into it. "
Maybe not "pulled" but there must have been a good dozen threads closed to new posts in the last couple weeks, most with no obvious reason.
The fact you are not aware is part of what has so many of us confused and frustrated - it appears to be a multi-headed corporate monster over-riding things at BT, so that like Heracles in his tasks, when one head of the snake is cut off, many more are attacking.
This has given rise to terms like "the Lords of Tauntonville" ( plural) and "saving the forum from the moderators"
I see it apparent in some of what you have explained in this thread, that corporate dis-organization is behind a lot of the problems. Taunton does seem to run more by committee and team than by individual talent and work.
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Excellence is its own reward!
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CU2
Reged: Nov 09 2008
Posts: 121
Loc: The burning tundra
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i think good active mods and more none-response might be the key
I've said this before and it's true and not everybody heard me the first time so I'll say it again:
Every other forum I've ever read more than one thread on has an active moderator and you can figure out who they are in a heartbeat.
Also, there is usually some sort of "sticky" at the top of each category to deal with whatever current problem is popping up. One cannot get to the meat of the discussions without crossing over "the rules". They don't have to be read, but there's no question where they are, so there's no excuse if they're not followed.
One of the unique things about BT (and QT as well) is that thru the Fests a large number of the regulars know each other personally. Two guys that know each other giving each other shit while they're both smiling might look the same to an occasional mod that doesn't know the players as does an actual flame war. Then others see the words, but miss the sentiment and start piling on.
Luka's right. We need to police ourselves a little better and then the mods can identify the real trolls and let the rest of us be - ya bunch of liberal - conservative (pick one) aholes. You're all just jealous of Riversong.
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PIFFIN
Reged: Apr 29 2002
Posts: 94
Loc: Island in Maine
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I'm sure that is not all as you think.
I got a fair warning from JP which stated a request to back off because of complaints, and a "...this is not like you"
Fact is, there have probably been more complaints registered about me that the mods have managed to ignore because of my track record.
But communication is good. I can see why JP got tired ofd too much of it, but I recall bacK a couple years to once when J Fink emailed me about a complaint made by someone HUA.
They had read a post of mine where I used a person's name in telling a story except to protect the guilty, I used capital initials for the characters, in the same time-honored fashion as many English writes - i.e. murders on the Rue Morgue.
So my story had N and R and P for characters, but the idiot who complained thought my N meant that dirty misused word for my coloured brothers and that I was therefore a racist and that BT was supporting hate speech...( see what the mods have to deal with for insane complaints?)
Fortunately Justin saw the error when I pointed it out and suggested that he actually read my post in context.
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Excellence is its own reward!
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calvin
Reged: Apr 29 2002
Posts: 2388
Loc: NW Ohio
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Mike,
Moderation is necessary-self policing works with reasonable people-respectful people, whomever thinks about others b/4 they open their mouth. The ones that irk me use no logic in their debate, just spiteful words. They're safe behind their fingers on the keyboard.
What makes a decent moderator? Over at BT it would probably be someone that reads enough to have a history of both the topics and the membership. While evenhanded decisions need be made, an informed moderator will certainly know the room he or she is in. Those that constantly harang others will be seen as trouble makers and dealt with one way-those that contribute their knowledge will be remembered as such and probably be treated differently.
Ever referee a game of any kind? A thankless job for sure. Even calls are the goal and they usually happen. However, pains in the asses are also figured out quickly and probably watched with a closer eye. Both could be good athletes, but sportsmanship is also part of the mix. There's varying degrees of penalties in many sports. The extreme-ejection. Sometimes your history has something to do with the decision.
What all this is going to in a round about way is that the moderators need to be part of the forum-maybe not by posting but certainly by reading so they get to know the contributors,the whiners and the trolls. There's no reason in the world to eject someone that's given years of good advice and information for one blowup. And, there's every reason in the world to send somebody packing that does nothing but bring down the game.
This is no easy task on a board of the size of BT. I guess I don't even know if the above really has anything to do with it. Moderation has to be swift. It shouldn't need a complaint to get it started, but I can understand how that could happen-you can't be everywhere all the time. Maybe certain moderators for an individual folder.
If you appoint moderator helpers they take on a sort of quisling role-the informant. That won't breed much good either.
Here it's simplified because of the small size. I had no trouble nor reserve jumping on some of the goings on here early in the Tavern boat people thread. I just got plain pissed and let the readers know it. Shortly afterwards I expected to read all sorts of whining and a large exodus of folks. Well, there was a bit of migration, but there was also a calm that fell too.
I felt a bit bad about it. But I also wasn't mad anymore either. When I rcvd a couple emails from some of those that left explaining their decision I felt relieved. They didn't condemn me, they commended my being forthright with my feelings and even thought I had been fair.
What I'm trying say I guess is that I have a better understanding of the task now. The job at BT isn't going to be easy and probably will still polarize some.
Best of luck.
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Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City
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PIFFIN
Reged: Apr 29 2002
Posts: 94
Loc: Island in Maine
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absolutely - BRAVO!
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Excellence is its own reward!
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polcat11
Reged: Dec 03 2008
Posts: 23
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"it had zero effect.."
i don't know, I'm a firm believer in peer pressure and social judgements.
If you were to step between Luka and I and say I'm a jerk for thinking that way I'd probably take it to heart and at least shut up.
"i think good active mods and more none-response might be the key"
I do to....Maybe when Luka talks like that he reminds me of my high school teacher,(the one who got me kicked me out of school :-)) I don't know.....don't really care, just killing time.
Luka . . .the wand is to create harmony amongst the musicians, if it takes a poke in the bassoonists eye to get him back in time...so be it.
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PIFFIN
Reged: Apr 29 2002
Posts: 94
Loc: Island in Maine
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posse's?
Counterpossee's?
Dang it all, I missed so much by just staying busy with honest arguements!
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Excellence is its own reward!
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Luka
Reged: Apr 25 2002
Posts: 1383
Loc: The great NorthWet
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Quote:
Luka . . .the wand is to create harmony amongst the musicians, if it takes a poke in the bassoonists eye to get him back in time...so be it.
Good point.
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The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good. ~Samuel Johnson
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JHOLE
Reged: Nov 08 2008
Posts: 258
Loc: Oregon. Ohio
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I'm cool with that.
I agree.
Context was the point I was trying to make.
I've seen and lived more offences of insinuation and intent than I have of blatancy.
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FHBWEB
Reged: Dec 02 2008
Posts: 36
Loc: Newtown, CT
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Sorry Piffin -- Diatribe was probably the wrong word. I was just trying to say hold on a sec while I dissect the letter b/c it was kinda long.
JP
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polcat11
Reged: Dec 03 2008
Posts: 23
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I just popped in and it seems the parties over.....so JP how about a simple summary of the future for the TAvern......the past is over...no use to keep going over who what where when and why of that........what's next......if anything.
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FHBWEB
Reged: Dec 02 2008
Posts: 36
Loc: Newtown, CT
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Just wanted to stop in tonight, won't be around as I have to go rent a jackhammer at 6am before work.
What m0ron would pour concrete at the 90-degree angle of a house to form a patio? And do so right over the existing shingles, with no flashing? Anyways, long story short, I'll be replacing a mudsill and rim joist on Sat.
But back to the discussion...
Here's what to expect in the next fews days:
-- A statement from TPTB about what is acceptable and not on BT.
-- A slight reorganization of the current folder structures (splitting out interior/exterior construction, for example).
BTW, I would love to use sticky posts, and will do so when we get new forum software.
-- A call for moderators, ideally one per folder. They would "own" each space and interact with visitors, and make moderating all of BT easier.
The above may turn into a paying gig if I can get some $$ from TP.
-- The elimination of hidden moderators. All moderators will have an icon that they are moderators.
The new moderators will also be on the frontline, but won't have the last word. If someone feels they are out of bounds, the issue can be brought up to me.
-- A folder that I'll check daily and answer questions/concerns. And no, i can't change that header either.
-- Reinstatement of BT/Tavern access for most members. I only say most here b/c I need to look at my list and I seem to remember some way outside this group who were also booted and I never heard from again. So I can't just reverse all the bans in a big bunch, I have to do them one by one.
If you are booted, gagged, banned or whatever and want back in, email me and I'll have Dano pull your file. Not, not that Dano, the Book 'em Dano Dano.
-- Of course, this can all change depending on the weather, but I'll do my best to get it done ASAP.
JP
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polcat11
Reged: Dec 03 2008
Posts: 23
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that sounds pretty good to me........thank you...happy jackhammering........
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FHBWEB
Reged: Dec 02 2008
Posts: 36
Loc: Newtown, CT
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Oh, one other thing since so many people keep asking: I'm not closing down the Tavern.
Good night.
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Jer
Reged: Dec 27 2006
Posts: 3
Loc: North of Philly near the river...
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At last an answer to what went on. Thanks Mike.
I don't know how but my name got changed to Carp55. It's Jer...& I can't seem to edit it back.
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calvin
Reged: Apr 29 2002
Posts: 2388
Loc: NW Ohio
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JP,
Thanks for the information. Stop back anytime.
All,
It was nice having you all visit for the past couple weeks.
See you next time the need arises (no, not the next massacre) like a collection for a brother, sister or other worthy cause.
I'm hoping Grant continues to use our Construction Gallery as a repository for some of his work. Nice to have it in a place that won't get buried. He can always link to it over at BT.
We'll be holding the occasional auction-seeing as how someone is smuggling a 16 ga. nailer from the defense department. Not hot, just rechanneled. These auctions keep $'s coming in which support this board. I'll sneak into a thread here or there and announce further bidwars.
If you want you can slip us a donation-which goes to the same purpose. Either use the Paypal button on the bottom of most of the pages or send it to:
Quittintime
p.o.box 351
maumee, ohio 43537-0351
thank you,
Feel free to come on back. This place will probably be here.
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Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City
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Gunner
Reged: May 02 2002
Posts: 143
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Honestly. Aren't some of you guys a little embarrased that you have to have the rules of civility spelled out for you? With examples!
You guys overthink this forum thing way too much. It's like you've never interacted before. It's pretty simple really.
Just Sayin.
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Whale Oil Beef Hooked!
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